Widower Wednesday: Valentine’s Day and Marriage
February 6th, 2013 | 17 comments
Book update: I have all the stories that I need for Living with a Widower. Contributor Agreements have been mailed out. So far I’ve received a little more than half of them. The book is also going through a second edit with an editor. Once that’s back it will head to two proofreaders for final review. I contacted the designer that did the covers for the last two books and she has time next week to complete the project. The only thing holding me back is coming up with a suitable subtitle for the book. That should (hopefully) be finalized today. Assuming all goes according to plan, the book should be available by the end of the month or beginning of March. If there are unforeseen delays, I’ll keep you all posted.
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I’m answering two questions from readers in this week’s Widower Wednesday column. The first has to do with Valentine’s Day and the second has to do with marriage.
Here’s the first letter:
Hi Abel,
My widower boyfriend has a romantic Valentine’s Day weekend planned. I was very excited about it until I learned that we’ll be going to the same city and hotel that the late wife and he used to visit for romantic weekends. Now I’m not looking forward to it at all and feel like he’s just reliving the past instead of making new memories with me. Do you have any suggestions on the best way to talk about this with him?
And here’s my answer: First figure out what’s really bothering you. Is it the fact that you’re staying the same hotel, visiting the same city, doing the same things they did, or a combination of all of them. If, for example, it’s just the same hotel that’s bothering you, then look up some other places to stay. In short, don’t go there to complain about the trip but be excited about the trip with some possible modifications.
Next, find a quiet time to talk and express your concerns about wanting to make new memories together. Tell him that you’re still interested in a romantic getaway where the two of you can spend some time growing closer and give him some alterative plans to consider. The thing to remember you can’t make the conversation about the past or his late wife. It has to be focused on building a foundation for a strong relationship and a future together. Hopefully your boyfriend loves you enough to understand your concerns and the two of you can come to a compromise that will make the weekend memorable for both of you.
And here’s the second letter:
Dear Abel,
Thank God for your website. It’s been a big help. I have a quick question I’m hoping you can help me with. My boyfriend had been widowed for 3 years after a 20-year marriage to his late wife. We’ve been dating for nearly two years. Our relationship has reached a point where I want to discuss getting married. However, every time I bring up the subject he tells me that he doesn’t want to tie the knot again and is fine with the relationship as is. (We’re living together.) In all other respects he’s a good guy and treats me well. The fact that he was willing to pledge his love to the late wife but not to me is making me feel second best. Am I making too big a deal out of this or should I just move forward and be content with the relationship as it is?
My answer: There’s a big difference between being married and not being married. I know that not everyone wants to get married and if both couples are fine not tying the knot, that’s one thing. But that’s not the case here. If you think and feel you’ll never be number one in the widower’s heart until he marries you or, at the very least, puts a ring on your finger, you’re probably correct.
What you first need to do is decide how important it is to be married. If it is something you really need, you both need to have a serious conversation about where you both see the relationship going. If he’s adamant that he doesn’t want to get married again, then you’re probably better off moving on to greener pastures. There’s really no point being with someone if the two of you don’t have the same vision for where this relationship should be headed.
Entry Filed under: Widower Wednesday
It seems both letter writers suffer from a malady that afflicts so many women in relationships – whether they are dating widowed men or not – and that is being afraid to want what they want and ask for it. We don’t want to seem ungrateful or demanding by pointing out that this or that really doesn’t do it for us.
So instead, we go along, the fellow thinks that all is well, until we can’t go along anymore, and we admit that we’d rather not holiday where he and the late wife did or no, living together forever isn’t our dream too.
In my opinion, if you can’t initiate a conversation in your own relationship about something that’s important to you or bothering you than something bigger is wrong.
I think another important thing is to really And truly be honest with yourself first about what is ok and what is not. Once you’ve done that, then it will have to be effectively communicated to your partner. But you really have to be honest with yourself. I think more often than not we try to convince ourselves we can be ok with things we really know deep inside that we are not ok with.
But I do have one question about the above. Why should the conversation not be about not wanting to do the things late wife and widower did. More often than not that is the issue and wanting to make new memories with your partner means often times wanting to do things differently than w and LW did things. It doesn’t have to be the crux of the reasoning and discussion but why can it not be mentioned.
Because when you frame the discussion that way, you are often more likely to get a defensive reaction from the widowed person and then discussion doesn’t take place but rather argument ensues with the widowed person probably playing a widow card or two that will just make matters worse.
Even being widowed myself, I would never “go there” even if the crux of my issue was somehow related to not wanting to tread in LW’s footsteps or lay foundation for our marriage over the top of their marriage. It’s always better to talk about things from a me (or and us) standpoint rather than a “I am not her” standpoint. But that is just my opinion.
There are simply some aspects of being the next one or the second wife that you just work through on your own.
I understand so even when a w says you might always feel you are in her shadow you can’t say you don’t want to be, even when you tell him that it’s hard to imagine us as a couple when the surrounding dont reflect it, and he says I can’t change my past then I still shouldn’t have mentioned LW. He can. But I shouldn’t not. And that’s with most w. then I think I messed up our relationship maybe. As much as I tried so hard to frame things on the beauty of our second chances and that I understood in this situation there would be complications around is but I didn’t want them to come between is because I always wanted is to have open loving productive communication and I wanted is to be close I still shouldn’t have made any mention of LW. Even when he said he can’t love again the way he loved her or hoped he would meet her in heaven or his next life, I should not have ever made such a small slip up. Because most of the time I didn’t. But every now and then say when the 7 photos of them didn’t come down for a couple of years in the bedroom I shouldn’t have said to him that it’s hard for me to imagine us as a couple first because when I think of him I imagine them as a couple first, before us. I am really starting to think that I messed up. Annie with you being a widow also say the reverse is true in your situation. I asked him to remove a photo of LW from fb that was from a wedding ceremony that someone put after we began speaking. How should I have said this without saying that a photo from the wedding with LW bothered me because it Was on a public international platform. I didn’t say anything about the other photos of them. It was something that he was tagged on that was not within the confines of their home and I wanted my friends and family to associate him with me not LW. ESP those who had not met him yet. Maybe I am the one who was wrong in all this. Maybe I should have said I wanted a photo of us on fb rather than saying the one from the wedding ceremony was hard for me to see.
I have been through EVERY aspect of Dating a W. I can tell anyone out there that if it is not a happy experience for you now and riddled with problems, it is NOT going to change.
I have been through a very traumatic and heartbreaking experience.
If anyone is thinking of diving in BEWARE. There are SO MANY issues. If you are already dating a W and having problems…get out asap.
My heart has been shattered. Engaged twice. Even though most of the time he seemed ready to move on, there was always some drama that wouldd be blown out of proportion, causing a larger fight than necessary. I really feel like some of it was to avoid commitment.
I am not bitter, I just wish I had realized what this whole situation would entai. Kids are hurt, I am hurt. I gave my ALL. I embraced LW memory.
WOW, MY W HAD 3 PICTURES OF ME ON FACEBOOK AND 108 OF LW. WE FINALLY BROKE UP AND HE CHANGED HIS PROFILE PICTURE TO ONE OF THEM TOGETHER. WOW, I WAS SO VALIDATED THAT HE JUST WANTED A WARM BODY.
Unfortunately, I have to agree DAW was not a good experience for me either and several others I know. I hate to generalize bc some ppl are very happily married to Ws, but I believe it’s a VERY difficult type of relationship to navigate, fraught with problems/issues, and there a lot of stuck guys out there. It’s sad really. But be encouraged – I foudn the perfect fit – a non-W and getting married soon. So glad NOT to be DAW anymore.
My suspicion is that difficult men were difficult always and not just as a result of being widowed and the trauma of widowhood often gives these men the convenient cover that they lacked before.
While there are issues specific to widowhood that fall outside what is considered “normal” dating issues given that more people are divorced or fresh out of long term living together situations, all relationships that have existing children and extended family to deal with are going to be more work than when we were 20 and fresh of out of the box – so to speak.
To the first letter writer: First question I would ask the boyfriend is why he chose this city/hotel. That answer alone, if honest, should speak volumes. He could be reliving his past (in which case, he really needs to know how you feel about that). Or he could be a lazy or unadventurous travel planner (and he needs your help picking a new place next time).
To the second letter writer: It is too bad you and the boyfriend didn’t talk about marriage BEFORE you moved in together. If you really want marriage (and you certainly have every right to) and he doesn’t (and he certainly has every right not to) then move on. And next time, get the marriage question squared away before shacking up.
I want to give the widower the benefit of the doubt in the first case. Usually it’s not so much was about reliving the past but just a lazy/unadventurous type. Maybe I’m projecting.
The problem I’ve see Abel is that when its just the guy being the guy and maybe trying to find an easy way to book and plan then usually it’s not an issue. Generally those dynamics haven’t been set up of feeling second or the gow/wow is naive about the situation and dialogue just happens in a normal way. It’s when a gow or wow has become conditioned to feel that way because of the w behavior as well that communication starts becoming more difficult. One part is learn about the uniqueness of the situation and as we move forward these likely become less and less of an issue. It is when the widower doesn’t want to put a gow or wow first and he shows this by dragging his feet being passive aggressive defensive or outright declining to make concessions compromises and changes. I always give the benefit of the doubt to people because I always see the good in them and the potential to do the right things. I couldn’t imagine hurting my w even though his behavior hurt me repeatedly. But the gow or wow also deserves the benefit of doubt because we don’t know if circumstances such as the W’s behavior conditioned her to feel that way.
Annie I wasn’t trying to be argumentative. I do understand your point but maybe I’m speaking out of guilt regarding my interactions with my w. I always framed things around our memories and hour hopes and dreams for our future. That was the crux of my issue and the crux of what I wanted to make our discussion around. When it was pictures I tried to explain to him that I told him it makes it hard to envision us as a couple. In my situation I tried all that and he always said what I say is true and yes that he does understand. The same thing about taking a honeymoon where they did. I told him I want a honeymoon in a new place with memories that are just ours. But when my w would drag his feet passive aggressively or became defensive or wouldn’t be willing to change anything then yes I in my humanness did on occasion mention LW in the end. It was never the crux of the discussion but yes I am guilty of that and I felt like I royally screwed up after reading your email. I respect your insight and am just trying to understand better. I have always told him the issue is him. Not really me and definitely not LW. My heart goes out to LW and I have respect for her and feel for her untimely and sudden demise and for what she’s missing out on. It’s not about her but its really been about my w who chooses to bring his past between us in our present. Not sure if this makes sense as I’m typing from an iPhone. I’m really looking for dialogue here and am not questioning anyone’s respected opinions. I’m just trying to learn and grow and become a better person.
KT, I realize that and I apologize if my reply caused you any anxiety. Dealing with the “second best” feelings and yet trying to focus all conversation on the now is probably one of the most difficult aspects of being in a relationship with a widowed person. I totally get that.
Being widowed myself hasn’t granted me any immunity from sometimes feeling as though I was living in the shadow of saint who I could never measure up to, and it wasn’t anything my husband, step-daughters or the LW’s wife did or said intentionally. There is just normal, natural overlap that comes along with a spouse having died. It was something I simply had to learn to deal with and not take personally. Given that I am not naturally a very confident sure of myself person, this took time.
I also had to learn to make things my own. Also a time thing.
To my husband’s credit, he has never balked once when I have changed something or requested to put my stamp on anything. So I have not met with any resistance, passive or otherwise. Any angst has been pretty much the result of my own hesitation and fear of causing hurt.
I am not big on allowing widowed to use their dead spouses as shields, but I recognize that the better route around those who have bought in to the idea that somehow the dead have a place of honor – forever – in the future (and make really handy weapons during a disagreement) is to avoid bringing them into relationship discussions. The focus on “me” and “us” is a way of disarming the widowed person. They can’t play their usual widow cards if you don’t give them the opening.
However, if it comes down to it and it’s the only way to make your feelings and position clear – then do it. If you don’t want to go to a the same honeymoon spot just say “this is our honeymoon and it deserves a new locale” or “no, it isn’t okay if our holidays are always spent with LW’s family. we need to form new family rituals b/c we are a new family” or whatever. And then stand your ground. If he’d never been married before, you’d stand your ground in the face of passive resistance, right?
Dead wives aren’t sacred. They are just a unique relationship issue and there is more than one work around. My advice is to go with the least likely to bring up opportunities for her to become a third wheel but that’s not always going to work. You do what works.
Thanks Annie. I responded to your previous question before reading your new post. All I know is that I tried but I couldn’t any longer find a way to move forward while my widower continued to choose to have one foot stuck in the back door to his past. I have done all I could to accept respect accommodate and respect his loss and LW memory. I just always came in second. And I’m trying to learn. I want to understand what I did wrong. He doesn’t see what he did wrong but I at least want to learn and grow as a person. I have am immense heart that is limited by my humanness and I sometimes have feelings too. But thanks so much Annie for clarifying.
“Humanness” is another way of saying, “It matters to me how other people feel. Sometimes more than my own feelings do”. And this is a wonderful thing, but it get used against us to.
I don’t think you messed up anything. From your description, it just seems that he has figured out how to “win” by using your natural kindness against you. I don’t personally think it’s right or fair to win a point within the confines of your most intimate relationship by making your partner feel guilty, but I don’t think people suddenly become different at their core when they are widowed. My guess is that your W also had similar ways of “winning” with his LW too. It is too bad you can’t confirm this with her and if lost loved ones do indeed keep track of us in our lives, you can bet she is shaking her head in disgust and totally empathizing with you.
Pics in the bedroom are a total no-no. Bedrooms are intimate couple spaces and no past relationships of any nature should be allowed in.
Though I am not a big Dr. Phil fan, he has one saying that I like “You teach people how to treat you.” Your W knows how to shut down a conversation using his “grief”. The only way to change that is to simply stop letting that happen. Once he figures out that the LW and widowhood aren’t going to sway you, he will use that tool less often.
It’s not you. He is lucky to have someone who truly wants to understand and make things easier for him. It’s him. He wants to be widowed and be in a relationship and it really doesn’t work that way though, unfortunately, that sort of “you can have it all” attitude is the dominant one in the widow culture these days.
Annie like I said I have always enjoyed your writings and have respect for your view points. Thank you so much for clearing this up. I feel so much better. Unfortunately I recently ended it with my widower because I didn’t think it was fair that he used the LW w card to end all discussions and that he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. In my heart this is one relationship I put forth 150% but got almost nothing in return. But in this situation your last message on today’s topic just soothed the ache a little more. Thank you so much.
[...] Last week I answered an email from a woman who was invited by her for a romantic weekend in the same hotel he and the late wife used to frequent when they were married. The woman wanted to go on this trip but didn’t want to stay in the same hotel or make the trip a repeat of a romantic getaway that the widower and the late wife shared. Instead she wanted to make new memories with the widower somewhere that could be special to them. [...]
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