Widower Wednesday: Traveling with a Widower
April 20th, 2011 | 27 comments
Just a reminder to anyone who wants their dating a widower story to be considered in my upcoming book, you have until May 13 to submit a story. I’ve received a bunch of great entries so far and think that your additions will really take this book to the next level. I’ve read through all of them so far and will be making final decisions before June.
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An issue I’m seeing more and more often in my inbox deals with traveling with a widower. A woman recently emailed me and expressed her frustration that the widower wanted to take her on a week-long trip to Europe. The problem wasn’t that the widower wanted to take her on a trip overseas but that they’d be staying in the same hotels and visiting a lot of the same places that the W and the LW regularly visited together. The fact that they’d be doing so many things that the W and LW did that the woman felt like it wasn’t going to be “their” trip but a trip to relive times with the late wife. For the most part this woman felt like the W did a good job of making her #1 but felt that trip was making her feel more and more like a third wheel. She wanted a trip where they could create new memories that could be theirs alone.
When MG and I were first dating, I ended up taking her to places that the LW and I frequented. The reason I chose these places wasn’t because I was trying to relive the past, but because I knew the place well enough that I could ensure that we could have a good time, food, etc. there. After we got more comfortable with each other we started exploring new places to visit and restaurants to eat at.
When I read these stories, I wonder if the widower is doing this for similar reasons. My gut tells me most widowers may just be comfortable visiting the places he’s visiting. It’s much easier to travel when you already know the good hotels to stay, places to visit, and restaurants to eat at. The only thing that might raise my eyebrows is if the widower’s trying to take you to the place he scattered the LW’s ashes, was married or honeymooned with the late wife, or other emotionally significant event. If’s it’s a regular vacation or business destination, I wouldn’t be as concerned.
So what’s the best way to handle this?
My suggestion is to tell the widower how you feel about making the trip just like the one he and the LW and suggest maybe he change things up a little. For example are there different cities you could visit or different hotels to stay at or restaurants to eat. Maybe even do some research before hand and give him some suggestions so it doesn’t appear that you’re whining but excited to take a trip with him. I’m not saying the entire trip has to be different but add enough new elements that it feels like you’re exploring or staying at places for the first time together.
Most widowers who are ready to start a new life should understand your feelings and be open to making some changes. After all, starting a new life means creating new memories. Hopefully he’s not so stuck in his ways that a different experience is something he’d be open to.
Entry Filed under: Widower Wednesday
I had to chuckle about trips that included “the place he scattered the LW’s ashes” because our first long trip (the one where he proposed to me) was to one of the many places were the LW’s ashes were placed. It was a special place they’d been to, but I knew that before going and he suggested the spot only because I told him how much I liked the pics I’d seen of it and wished I could visit it someday. We even still have the timeshare in the mountains that was theirs and my daughter and I love it there.
The way I always look at it is if R and I are somewhere and doing something together, the memory is new for us and if he’s been there before with LW that has no bearing on now. Staying in the present tense is very helpful.
But I agree with your familiar ground theory, and that a person should simply speak up and voice her concerns. It’s most likely that there are no griefy undertones and the W will likely be unaware that an issue exists at all and will want to do whatever is necessary to ensure the new relationship takes on its own aura and creates its own memories.
If this is the couple’s first vacation together, I vote for Destination Terra Nova for both parties. Or at least a mix of old and new for the widower, as Abel offered.
An itinerary filled entirely of old haunts is probably easier for the GOW after the relationship is more grounded.
In any case, there is nothing like traveling to give you new insights into your partner, yourself and your couplehood.
Traveling does have a tendency to put people out of their comfort zones, some moreso than other. For the guy, it may be going someplace new where –yikes– he might have to ask for directions. For the gal, it will be going someplace that holds history to her beau’s previous marriage.
Being willing to extend yourself a little bit beyond your own comfort zone is good diplomacy in any relationship. You never know if something you thought you were scared of turns out to be something you like.
That’s my policy until, of course, the fiance wants me to go bungee jumping.
@Annie — I don’t think the issue is so much going places the W and LW visited but going on the exact same trip and he and the LW was used to going on. At least that’s the feeling I get. They don’t mind going to Pairs but would rather try out some new things out. Most of these women tend to be in a new relationship so, to your point, they probably aren’t as secure in the relationship yet.
@Karen — The first thing MG learned about me on our first real trip together was that I don’t like asking for directions and would rather get lost. However, when we get around to visiting your neck of the woods, I promise to ask for directions instead of getting lost.
My DH and I left right after our marriage ceremony on a wonderful 10 day trip to Southern California, doing many things that were new to me, because I had only been there once as a child. It was his choice of destinations, because I truly didn’t care so long as we were together. Along the way, he mentioned things like “I can’t believe LW held up so well to do this or that.” As trip progressed, I realized that he had done many of the same things with another couple as her last trip before she passed (of brain cancer). I was still fine with things–still kind of in a bubble–until upon our return, LW’s friend made it a point to ask me where we had gone and then asked in detail what we had done. With each of my answers, she responded with, “Oh, we did that, too. Did DH tell you that was his and LW’s favorite place, restaurant, ocean view, etc., etc.” When I finally got away from her and the situation that put us together, I asked DH what was the motive to return to his last trip with LW on our honeymoon. His response was that it was someplace he had been several times, and knew his way around, and was familiar enough with the area to not be lost all the time, and besides there were several members of his family there that he wanted me to meet–and we also visited members of my family for the same reason. I told him of the conversation with LW’s friend, and he acknowledged that she could be quite out-spoken, and that he was truly sorry that conversation took place. I accepted that explanation, but I’ve noticed that I don’t refer to that trip as “our honeymoon” any longer, but as “the trip we took after we were married.” A play on words, perhaps, but it kind of killed the “honeymoon” flavor of it for me. That friend of LW’s went on to talk about how our new house was paid for by LW’s insurance (it wasn’t–medical bills took all of that–it was MY savings that bought the lot, etc.) remarked when I moved the furniture in the living room (I did it to make room for my piano), and entertained in the living room (which was off-limits except to dust and vac when LW was alive.) Needless to say, I never felt comfortable enough around her to develop a friendship. Since then we have been on many trips–some to familiar places that he went with LW, and many that were firsts for both of us. I enjoy the “firsts” for both of us more, because we can reminisce without tripping of his “before my time” memories. I have a lot of “pleaser” in my personality, also, and that is not always a good thing, as previously pointed out by others.
This is an issue that doesn’t really come up for us– at least not yet–since my DH and LW really didn’t do alot of travelling together during their marriage. With the exception of Tokyo, which hubby said he’d like to take me sometime…
@Diney–I can see how you feel sorta “cheated” by your honeymoon and that’s too bad. I think some distance between LW friend and both of you is probably not a bad idea….not sure that all the comments, however well meaning they sounded, were really intended as such. (We women can be quite sneaky and often know exactly what we’re saying and how it will be received!)
I agree that any trips that are “repeat” trips need to have a different twist on them to make them special and unique for the current couple. For example, I’d LOVE to take hubby to Hawaii and Mexico someday–both places I’ve visited with my ex–but we’d surely stay at different hotels and do different/more stuff–and guaranteed we’d have a much better time!
He’s actually mentioned that to me before–feeling wierd about going w/ me to Cancun b/c that’s where ex and I honeymooned.
But the way I look at it–in general–is like this….like a videotape that is being taped over. That is exactly how hubby put it to me when I got upset with him that he took me on the same “date” in NYC that he’d taken another gal he’d dated. He said that he wanted to “tape over” that experience with me instead. Don’t know if it was just a line, but I bought it hook, line and sinker.
I’d like to think I’d approach a future visit to Tokyo in the same way…
Diney: Too bad the LW’s friend had to turn what would have been a neutral experience into a disappointing one. Keep your distance from her.
Beth: Nice way to reframe the topic (ie videotape).
Abel: Not surprised. Isn’t your favorite show “Lost?”
The fiance and I don’t have a ton of money for traveling right now (we have a wedding to pay for), but the weekend trips and longer vacations we have taken together were all to places new to both of us, simply because we were both itching to explore new ground. Same idea will dictate our honeymoon destination (still a toss up between Chesapeake Bay and Nashville/Memphis).
A couple, longtime friends of mine who now are part of our regular social network, have suggested the four of us go to New York City together. I would love this experience, since my friends know the city well and all of fiance’s ties to the Big Apple were for his late wife’s long, painful, experimental cancer treatments. He seems eager to create some happy memories there as well.
This is an interesting topic that I have yet to go thru as it relates to an overnight trip as a widower.
From a widowers perspective I am very aware of this and want to go to new places. A couple places, as Abel notes, would be off limits as destinations.
If you as a couple choose to go to previous destinations, I think its the reaction of the Widow/Widower when you are there. If there is more focus on his/her memories with past vs focus on the new relationship its not positive. Especially if it bothers the new perrson and you’ve not had good communication.
I have done day trips to places locally I used to go with my LW and of course it brings up memories. I don’t think it was wrong. My focus was on the person I was with and enjoy her company.
I will admit it took me time to get to this place and had a different view on this 1year after than I do 2 years after.
@Abel – You are partially correct that often its fine if the destination is the same but the details are different. Certainly we’ve done that when I’ve traveled with my husband to professional meetings (and Spring Training). In the past he has made a point of booking not only a different hotel, but a different style of hotel. In San Francisco we stayed in a small, European-style hotel nearly a mile’s walk from the meetings. With LW he had always stayed at one of the meeting hotels, all very modern and huge. We did and saw different things and it was fun. But, no matter how different we make it, there is still a niggling little voice in the back of my mind which, quite inconveniently, wonders which trip he enjoyed more and which traveling companion was the best. As much as my head knows this is silly, my heart and self-confidence aren’t there, yet. Although we have a 40-year history, we are new in this relationship and it is incredibly important to me to create memories that are solely and uniquely ours. It doesn’t mean that every trip we take has to be somewhere they never went, but at least some must be. In fact, when I think back, we have taken 6 trips together and only one, our honeymoon in the Adirondacks, was to a place he had not been with his LW. They’d traveled through the area but never stayed there. It was an incredibly wonderful trip and we came back with funny anecdotes, memories and lots of pictures. I will treasure it forever.
Now for the disclaimer. I absolutely recognize that my need to do things and go places that are unique to us is driven, in large part, by our history. The combination of being first loves, the two breakups where he left me for his LW, and the knowledge that they had a very long and happy marriage is not exactly a recipe for unbridled self-confidence in me. I absolutely believe that, over time, as we create our own unique memories and reinforce the primacy of our relationship, the importance of this will diminish and I will be able to visit places they saw together without blinking an eye. At least I hope so because I’d really like to see the Grand Canyon, Seattle, Canada, St. John, New Orleans, Europe, etc., someday.
As with almost every other issue that has come up here, the key is communication with a little patience and understanding thrown in. Time is also a great help.
@D Michael — I think you’re right that the widow(er)’s attitude has a lot to do with how the new woman feels about these trips. If he makes it about “them” instead of the past trips, it will probably go over a lot better. It’s all about showing and treating the new woman like #1.
@Lynn Nice to hear that your W is mixing things up a bit. Communication between two peole who both want to work it out is THE way to go. And you’ve got to see the Grand Canyon someday. It’s awesome.
“The only thing that might raise my eyebrows is if the widower’s trying to take you to the place he scattered the LW’s ashes, was married or honeymooned with the late wife, or other emotionally significant event.”
I have been together with B for over 2 1/2 years. It’s been 6 years since his LW’s death. We both love the outdoors and it happens that LW’s ashes have been dispersed on the land in which they built a cabin. It is absolutely beautiful there! B mentioned to me before I went there for the first time that that was in fact where LW’s ashes were dispersed. I didn’t expect to fall in love with the place. I have questioned him about that fact and his belief is that it is “just ashes.” He believes that her spirit has left her body and that is what is important. I must believe and trust that or I’d be out of there in a second! Both their dogs ashes along with his ashes will be dispersed there. He’s been redoing the inside of the cabin to make it ours, along with the outhouse, etc. I’d greatly appreciate your take on the situation.
@Abel – From the moment we decided that a life together was what we wanted, my W has done and said everything he possibly could to make us the best we can be. How many men would give up a major career at 56 to move half-way across the country, leaving friends and colleagues of many years and a house that won’t sell in the current real estate market, to build a relationship? And while we are waiting for me to feel okay about visiting places he saw with his LW, we have a country full of major and minor league ballparks to see, a trip to Nova Scotia to plan and a foreign-exchange student/brother in Chile to visit. In a couple of years I’ll probably even be ready for the Grand Canyon.
@Abel -It took me time to get to the place I am as widower…I lost a promising relationship because I was not able to make her #1 when she wanted it. But without that person not sure I’d be where I am right now emotionally. I personally needed a push.
Places new and old, events and just general relationships can’t be positve until the widow(er) is able to love again is my experience. My guess is some widow(er)s never can get there and continuously run thru prospective new people because they can’t love again.
@Jacquie – What you feel is most important. If you love the place and are comfortable being there that’s great. The fact that you’ve had a conversation about what it means to him and you are good with that is really all you need. I think that sometimes there is a tendency to make more out of things because we think or feel that somehow they should be issues. In my case I have residual feelings about our early relationship which make me insecure about my place in his life. Staying in a New Orleans timeshare they bought together is not something I can do even though I’d love to see the city, and I have a lot of trouble when I stay at his house in Michigan because it is full of his LW’s stuff. (My father-in-law says the house “reeks” of her.) On the other hand, I don’t worry at all about his eldest daughter who is dead set against us and is always rude to me. She attended our wedding and sat stony face in the back of the church. Fortunately, my H has made it clear that I am his first priority and while he will always love and be there for her, it won’t be at my expense. So, I don’t stress over it. In this long-winded way (Sorry Elizabeth) I think I’m just saying that you should “go with your gut” on this and other issues, real or potential.
@Jacquie, R’s LW’s ashes are scattered in multiple places. He even used his GPS to mark the exact locations on a map for the older girls, but cremains tend to be a lot more ash than most people realize and we still have ashes in a container in our basement. I don’t know which container or where exactly and so if I need something from the storage room and can’t find it – I have R search b/c I’d rather not run across the container. R is bemused by this but it would be “awkward” for me. Perhaps the reminder of my own mortality is too real b/c that container is still around? Regardless, as Lynn points out, you need to feel what you feel and be able to talk about it with you W and reach a comfortable compromise.
@Lynn, the house we live in was their house and LW’s presence was evident. We are married just shy of four years and the house has changed a lot – some due to renovation and some due to simply purging items. At one point early, it bothered me a bit but I have come to the conclusion that it’s all just stuff. I’m sorry that your step-daughter is being difficult. It’s not unusual with adult children. I have friends who groused about fathers remarrying – my age, married themselves with kids. I don’t have tons of patience with it and tell them so normally. R’s girls were in their early 20′s and though they struggled, they always took their concerns to R and never out on my or my daughter, but R made it clear that anyone who was bent on questioning his decisions about his life should remember that he didn’t run his life by committee. It’s good that your W has set boundaries. It’s key for the long run.
@D Micheal, I agree that the W has to want to move on and actively pursue that course – whether it includes love again or not. Some can’t and some simply won’t. But it is a choice and we are not hostage to our feelings, as the grief committee would like us to believe.
@Annie – S’s LW was a collector. The house is loaded with china, furniture, Native American baskets and quill boxes, antiques, etc. that were all hers. It is quite overwhelming for me. We did talk about living there but the timing makes it impractical. My youngest is a junior in high school and hopes to go to college where I work. If she does that, tuition is free. The timing of her college and my eligibility for retirement coincide about 5 years from now. Things could change if she decided to go out of state, but that doesn’t seem likely. (Clinging to our home seems to be her reaction to my divorce and her dad’s relocation to Washington State.) My H does not want to rent the house out so the plan is to sell it when we can. If the timing was better, I’d be willing to live there provided we did some serious renovating. It’s a lovely old house on a nice big piece of property that backs on a river. We live in my house; a 70 year old brick townhouse on the edge of Baltimore City with a lot the size of a large postage stamp and backing onto an alley. Interestingly, when I put it that way, Michigan sounds so much more appealing!
Truly I have stopped worrying about my oldest SD. S has my back so I mostly leave her to him. If I stay out of the fray, it will be easier to be receptive when she finally figures out she has to accept me if she wants to be close with her dad. If I wade into the middle (as I’m often tempted to do), it will just make our future relationship more difficult. She’s already lost her mother and I don’t want her to lose her father, too. Thankfully, her younger sister and my two are mostly concerned that their parents are happy so they are pretty easy. It helps that only my two are at home. . .
Lovely Easter weekend to all.
Thank you Annie and Lynn for your responses!
It was greatly appreciated!
@ Annie – I agree with you whole-heartedly “staying in the present tense” really helps.
@ Lynn – I understand how you feel with the “New Orleans” timeshare. W and LW’s retirement home was just being built prior to her passing at the same location. It is presently up for sale, but he goes down there for at least 2 1/2 months of the year to rejuvenate in the hot sun. He also relives her death every year. I visit for one week during that time every year. I have no intention of ever making it our retirement home. I don’t want to spend my retirement years there as it was their plans. I would like to create our own retirement plans.
Hi, Could someone please direct me to any part of your blog/links that has the following discussion, or something similar ..
I have been dating a widower for two and a half years. He lost his wife 14 years ago. It took a while for me to realise we were both having a different relationship. He tells me he loves me, and I believe he cares deeply for me. However, I want to get married. We’ve had honest discussions about this.
It confuses me because he says he hasn’t ruled it out. I believe I can’t be on a ‘test’ any longer than this (and refuse to be so). The paradox is that the conflict has made him less sure of me.
He wants to keep the relationship as it is, where I go to his home and play ‘house’. I told him (kindly) that he wants the benefits of a wife, but won’t commit. He’s in his early sixties so I am not sure how much longer he needs to make up his mind !
The rational part of me says move on, but it’s so hard because I love him.
It’s clear he would rather lose me than marry me, although when we’ve tried to split up we’ve both found it so very hard without one another.
@ Anne, I don’t know that Abel has a post that deals directly with W’s who don’t want to marry again, but you could try this one:
http://www.abelkeogh.com/blog/widower/widower-wednesday/translating-widower-behavior/
But just my two cents, a man who wants to marry you, will. Nothing is going to get in the way. Men who are sure and in love generally back up their words with actions. If they hem and haw, it’s likely a sign that they like the status quo and see no reason to change. You deserve to be in the kind of relationship that you want and perhaps he isn’t the one to pursue that with.
When I dated a widower for 5 1/2 years, I made it a point on purpose to travel to new places all the time. I wanted us to have our own memories. Of course, there are local restaurants/fairs/events/malls/etc.that could not be avoided. If we did travel to a place he had been to w/the LW, I made sure (without saying it outloud!) that the trip was going to be different in every way possible. Every time I travel, I put a lot of time into researching the area and finding attractions, so it was easy to make a repeat city/area experience completely different. I also would buy a refrigerator magnet (on purpose) as a reminder of our trip. The only trip that was miserable for me was a weekend trip to his/their college. We were not connected at all that weekend and I couldn’t wait to get home. He made no effort to try to make me feel comfortable. The trip was all about him, her, and constant comments, ‘We did this, we did that, etc.’…Big mistake on his part. I would have never spoken like that to the man I was with. I initially didn’t have a problem going down memory lane, but it became totally overboard. His words would have been more appropriate if he had taken a grown child or relative with him, but not me. He was totally insensitive. That was the last trip we took together.
To Anne #17:
If I were you, I’d have one last serious talk w/the W and tell him you need to find someone who wants the same things in life as you do. Then say goodbye. “It’s clear that he would rather lose me than marry me..” says it all. You two are on two different planets. Waiting for this guy ‘to come around’ is wasting your life. Learn from my mistake of waiting for my W to come around for 5 1/2 years. Yes it’s hard, but this guy has it all. You don’t. Move on and keep busy. If he really cares, he will marry you. He wants the best of both worlds. Why are you compromising yourself and your wishes?
@Anne (#17) I concur with the advice Karen and Annie’s advice. If the W was interested in getting married, this wouldn’t be an issue. If he doesn’t want the same kind of relationship that you want, it’s time to move on.
@Anne #17 – I concur with all of the advice above. If your W really loved you, he’d want to move your relationship forward. For your sake, have that last conversation with him and be clear about what you need and want, and why the relationship doesn’t work for you. Prepare yourself for moving on without him. Plan something to do when you would normally be going to his home to “play house.” Do things and go places that you do not associate with your relationship. Focus on what you want – marriage to someone who loves and wants you enough to make a commitment. Do not get sucked into giving him more time unless you are prepared to give up on the idea of marriage. A man who has been widowed 14 years is clearly comfortable with his life and unlikely to be interested in changing his status any time soon. Good luck.
It all depends on the intent of the W and how he handles/introduces GOW/WOW to the experience. This is what I believe. And communication, up front is the key. Perfect Gal and I were in Dallas for a sympohony concert year before last. The most conveniient and best place for us to stay was at a very nice hotel minutes from the concert hall where I had stayed several times before, not with LW but with my another woman in a serious relationship with me between LW and P.G. I also stayed there on business. I was very matter of fact as I explained: “Here’s the deal. This hotel charges me a low rate, we will be upgraded to a suite with fresh choc. chip cookies, chocolates on the pillow and free Sunday brunch in the morning. Yes, I stayed here with ‘her’. But there are PLENTY of other hotels nearby I will be glad to reserve. What’s your choice? ” She said if it was not a problem for me (in other words, will I be thiinking of ‘her’) then it wasn’t a problem for her. W got the suite upgrade.
I love this woman! And the cookies were excellent and even more fun to share with her.
If she had said, no, keep on driving to the next hotel, that would have been fine as well and not another word would have been spoken about it. But we enjoyed that spot that just happens to be a part of my past with another woman because the accomodations, the food and the amenities are second to none for the price. Great fun and a totally different experience and outcome because P.G. was on my arm.
I had a very hard time with my X-W, I still keep reading the blogs, trying to (hopefully) figure him out because I try to always find answers. One of my most uncomfortable times with him was went we went to a resort that they went to before. He gave his name to check in, and the young clerk said “You must be Jane.” He was (and still is – after 4 years) not ready to move on from her death, and he told them to put the account in his name.
@Erika, I am sorry things did not work out for you. You would be surprised though how long it takes to sort our where names are joint and to correct them. There are things that still show up in the mail for R’s LW or jointly in their name. And nearly five years later, the occasional phone caller asks for her. It’s enough of a task to change names and inform all those who need to know let alone everyone who had the slightest contact. It’s not something I would read too much into.
Amen to that Annie. Things linger on forever it seems. LW made a political donation 6 or 7 years ago and I still constantly get political survey and fund raising calls for her. I beg, plead, threaten to change political parties to get her name OFF the calling lists, but it doesn’t seem to help.
And what happened today??!! I got an email from FTD reminding me of the ‘Love” message bouquet I sent to my girlfriend BEFORE my lovely GOW/Perfect Gal THREE OR FOUR YEARS AGO. Got to get that profile changed and unsubscribe to those FTD reminders. It was upsetting to me. P.G. would not have seen this, but it hit me as an unpleasant surprise. But hey, it’s a computer.
Everyone has a past and in these days it is hard to get things turned off. These reminders are like gophers popping up in the arcade game with the rubber mallet. If a WOW/GOW can keep that in mind and try to remove the ‘death’ part of the equation, maybe it would be easier to deal with. And, until and if I refinance my home, the mortgage is still in both our names. I called the bank and they said they can’t remove her name unless I do a new mortgage.
With the exception of visiting Toronto for our honeymoon and 10th anniversary, my LW and I did little traveling on our own. We always had our girls with us, and usually were traveling to visit family.
I suppose there are 2 traveling situations I’ll need to keep in mind.
-Our family liked to go camping ‘up north’ once or twice a year. If camping is an acitivity that is enjoyed in my future relationship, I will proactivly seek new locations to visit and build new memories there.
-My LW and I wished that we had taken our girls to see the Grand Canyon as a special family vacation, but her cancer got too bad to do so. I still would like to take the girls there, but it might seem awkward to be there with my ‘next’. Maybe I’ll figure out a way to get there before that time comes, or maybe that trip will need to wait for grand kids, or not at all. Time will tell.